[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="Bob Ennis"][quote="Dan"]I have another question that came up in the process though.. Every DVE in high def has a 1 frame delay. Has anyone had to deal with passing talking heads viz through it and lip sync? How can we deal with a delay that sometimes isn't there, and sometimes is (like when we need to effect in/out of viz)?[/quote] The only switcher that I've seen demonstrated that can do this is the S&W Kahuna. Good luck with whatever brand that you end up choosing.[/quote] Yes, but the Kahuna makes EVERYTHING a 1 frame delay to make that happen. There's a whole mess of reasons why people don't want that, either :-) Maybe the old phrase "better the devil you know...." makes sense.... RE[/quote] I know both devils and I like the constant 1-frame devil better than the variable-frame devil. Plus the audio guy likes knowing that anything I take will have a 1-frame delay instead of anywhere from 0 to 8 frames of delay, depending on the external converter being used. It makes it easier on me when taking from a camera straight to a camera in the DVE. It's great not having that 1-frame pop when I do that. John

[quote="Bob Ennis"][quote="Dan"]Certainly not slammed from me! All your opinions are more than welcome and from your previous posts I can see that you're really not biased against either switcher and "tell it like it".[/quote] Thanks - I didn't mean from you. About the keyer capability [quote="Dan"]That's a little surprising.. How will they implement the extra 2 keyers in the future? All menu driven?[/quote] All you need to do is look at the schmatics that are available (as I recall) via the installation/maintenance manuals to deduce this. As to how to control them, that "remains to be seen". [quote="Dan"]Also, i'm a little scared that the Kalypso will be discounted sooner (or really really soon) rather than later and that support will go along with it. I've heard some interesting anecdotes about Thomson Grass Valley's tech support lately.[/quote] Those thoughts have been posted a number of times on this site by a lot of people...you might want to search the archives to get more opinions about this. [quote="Dan"]I have another question that came up in the process though.. Every DVE in high def has a 1 frame delay. Has anyone had to deal with passing talking heads viz through it and lip sync? How can we deal with a delay that sometimes isn't there, and sometimes is (like when we need to effect in/out of viz)?[/quote] The only switcher that I've seen demonstrated that can do this is the S&W Kahuna. Good luck with whatever brand that you end up choosing.[/quote] Yes, but the Kahuna makes EVERYTHING a 1 frame delay to make that happen. There's a whole mess of reasons why people don't want that, either :-) Maybe the old phrase "better the devil you know...." makes sense.... RE

I would be very careful about creating a "gripes blog." I'm saying this from personal experience, if you complain about something that happened on a show and the wrong person reads it, you can REALLY get yourself burned. I think one or two other people in this market read this forum, they would know what I'm talking about.

[quote="Dan"]Certainly not slammed from me! All your opinions are more than welcome and from your previous posts I can see that you're really not biased against either switcher and "tell it like it".[/quote] Thanks - I didn't mean from you. About the keyer capability [quote="Dan"]That's a little surprising.. How will they implement the extra 2 keyers in the future? All menu driven?[/quote] All you need to do is look at the schmatics that are available (as I recall) via the installation/maintenance manuals to deduce this. As to how to control them, that "remains to be seen". [quote="Dan"]Also, i'm a little scared that the Kalypso will be discounted sooner (or really really soon) rather than later and that support will go along with it. I've heard some interesting anecdotes about Thomson Grass Valley's tech support lately.[/quote] Those thoughts have been posted a number of times on this site by a lot of people...you might want to search the archives to get more opinions about this. [quote="Dan"]I have another question that came up in the process though.. Every DVE in high def has a 1 frame delay. Has anyone had to deal with passing talking heads viz through it and lip sync? How can we deal with a delay that sometimes isn't there, and sometimes is (like when we need to effect in/out of viz)?[/quote] The only switcher that I've seen demonstrated that can do this is the S&W Kahuna. Good luck with whatever brand that you end up choosing.

I'd like to thank everyone for the amazing amount of help and insight you guys gave me. It's made the decision a little easier. I'll respond to a few comments made but i've taken everything into account and passed it on to my boss. So.. here we go. Stephan, regarding your first post, I'm pretty sure that all those features are available on the Sony and I've found out since I first posted that the prices between the Kayak (4.5ME frame with 3 and 1.5 ME control panels) are VERY similar. The kayak is just a few thousand dollars cheaper (if that). [quote="Bill D"]Honestly I have little knowledge of the Kayak, if you really need 4 ME's then that sounds silly to purchase a 3 ME plus a 1 ME, that is a poor workaround not a solution for when you have a choice.[/quote] I agree. [quote="Bill D"]Now everything is optional on Kalypso and the 8K. Are you comparing the same ME's (4), same number of inputs and outputs, how many TE on Kalypso (3 or 6). How many DME's on the 8K, I think they come 2-8 channels. How many chroma keyers on kalypso (they are optional) On 8K chromakeyers are standard on every keyer.[/quote] I found that the Kalypso has quite a few options while the 8K is the opposite for the most part. Most things are standard and there are just a few options. It might just be the way we were quoted, but this is the way it was for us. [quote="Bill D"]If all things are equal then GVG is robbing you, or you are getting a great deal on the 8K (are you on NBC affiliate?)[/quote] We're in Canada, but I can agree on the great deal part.. I'm not sure how or why, but we are getting an awesome deal (and i'm not going to complain about it!) [quote="Bill D"]Not sure what they are doing with the Kayak, seems like if they were gonna go with a 4 ME, we would have seen it by now.[/quote] And I think that should be the deal killer on this one.. 2 panels is just too cumbersome and sounds like something you'd inherit in an older facility but shouldn't be considered in a new one. [quote="Rick Edwards"]The 8000A is a teriffic switcher. It can have 4 control panels off of a single chassis, so your boss can still have the remote panel.[/quote] This wasn't a requirement from my boss, it was just our resellers deal to try to match Sony on pricing because the Kalypso was so much higher than the 8000A. [quote="Bob Ennis"]While I expect that I'll once again get slammed for "talking out of school"[/quote] Certainly not from me! All your opinions are more than welcome and from your previous posts I can see that you're really not biased against either switcher and "tell it like it". [quote="Bob Ennis"]it actually has 6 keyers per M/E, but only 4 keyers are available with the current software.[/quote] That's a little surprising.. How will they implement the extra 2 keyers in the future? All menu driven? [quote="Bob Ennis"]I can tell you that the current menu structure (which was designed for only a 1 M/E product and has been left there as the panel has grown) is VERY cumbersome because of its small size - it'll take a lot of getting used to in order to navigate your way through the layers.[/quote] That really sounds like something i'd rather not do even in a studio where I have time to play with it. [quote="Bob Ennis"]I drive both, and can tell you that anything that I can accomplish on an 8000 I can find a way to do one the Kalypso, and vice-versa[/quote] I think that this was one of the best things I got out of this thread. In a society where a lot of the time you "get what you pay for" the price difference was making me wonder if the 8000A might be missing stuff even though i've been trained on it. As an aside, Sony (and/or their selling reps here in Toronto) sent me to a 2 day TD training they had set up for a couple of new buyers at their expense (it was in Toronto). At that point we were thinking we might get a new switcher in the next 2 years. Guess it might have worked out for them though! Also, i'm a little scared that the Kalypso will be discounted sooner (or really really soon) rather than later and that support will go along with it. I've heard some interesting anecdotes about Thomson Grass Valley's tech support lately. [quote="EricG"]Not enough buttons, is what I'm saying[/quote] I found this on the Ross Synergy switcher also and it gets really cumbersome and annoying. [quote="XLNTeditor"]I have heard that S&W have been pretty aggressive with their Kahuna pricing. You might want to ask them for a quote - especially since you are going to buy SD and switch to HD. I have read that there is no hardware to change out when you do that. It's suppose to be only a software change.[/quote] We did get a quote from them, and were similarly priced to the Kalypso (before we got the pricing for the gently used, previously owned Turin Olympics switcher), but still quite a bit higher than Sony who doesn't require a hardware upgrade either. [quote="scottgfx"]I wish that there was individual who had a blog about switchers. That way that person could really let it rip. Others could have their own blogs with their own opinions. The more information I have, the more I can attempt to sift fact from fiction.[/quote] I'd be willing to host something like that, only problem is getting people that have time to contribute. TDHelp.com hasn't been updated in a few years, and we're all pretty busy.. If there was enough interest in it, I could look into it.. Hosting something smallish like that isn't really that expensive anymore. We really don't need another forum, so would it just be a gripes blog? I have another question that came up in the process though.. Every DVE in high def has a 1 frame delay. Has anyone had to deal with passing talking heads viz through it and lip sync? How can we deal with a delay that sometimes isn't there, and sometimes is (like when we need to effect in/out of viz)? Wow.. this turned out to be a really long reply, but I hope other people get as much out of the thread as I did.. thanks again everyone!

[quote="John Henkel"]Hey, nice job everyone! Y'all played nicely, pretty much nothing but great comparisons and critiques. Thanks! -JH[/quote] I understand what you are saying. A public forum should be civil. I am thankful that this forum stays that way, and I know that it's predicated on a couple of strong moderators. :) Here's my secret wish: I wish that there was individual who had a blog about switchers. That way that person could really let it rip. Others could have their own blogs with their own opinions. The more information I have, the more I can attempt to sift fact from fiction. I need this information because of this: The production manager, if he had his way, would have us punching on a Pinnacle switcher. We all know where that went. It's bad enough that we have a Pinnacle DVEXCEL connected through a maze of converters to an Ampex AVC Century. We have ended up with a 4 frame delay in all the video that we do transforms with. It's like our news goes through a time portal.

On doing a one day set/shoot/strike, I don't know if you've heard of Mobile TV Group's PUMA trucks. They're small 5-camera straight trucks with a built-in generator and satellite dish, designed to do productions out of places that aren't designed for TV. We've been using the one up here to cover the Vikings training camp and to cover high school sporting events. Anyway, the truck has a 2.5 M/E Kayak in it and the TDs around here have been able to handle single day events just fine. These prep football shows aren't exactly the Superbowl, but I'd guess they're about the same complexity as ERT or an FSN away feed. About the source name displays, I agree with you there, the contrast and readability is very low. They probably should have done something more like a Sony 7k, a nice bright green/amber over black instead of a darker green over a slightly lighter green.

Hey, nice job everyone! Y'all played nicely, pretty much nothing but great comparisons and critiques. Thanks! -JH

[quote="Dan"]... The Kalypso and Kahuna (don't really need the up/down converters) are pretty much out of our budget...[/quote] I have heard that S&W have been pretty agressive wih their Kahuna pricing. You might want to ask them for a quote - especially since you are going to buy SD and switch to HD. I have read that there is no hardware to change out when you do that. It's suppose to be only a software change.

I can speak about the kayak a little - I'm on one for the 3 NLCS games in St. Louis (Japanese feed) - in fact, I'm sitting in front of it as I type this (it's raining and I have nothing to do) I'd never accept a job on this thing for a 1-day set/shoot/strike, partly because I'm not that familiar with it, but mostly because you have to do almost everything via the touch-screen menus, and those are really really slow. Then again, I don't know if there's panels you can buy that this truck just elected not to buy; it is a pretty small truck. Not enough buttons, is what I'm saying - I'm used to building my timelines and creating transform effects almost entirely without the touch-screen on a Kalypso just cuz I find that method to be a little quicker. There's also no master e-mem equivalent on this thing, but the existence of macros should make that a (mostly) non-factor - again, if you have the time to play with it and figure out how to get it to do what you want it to do. So for a studio environment, it might meet your requirements. If I had enough set time I suppose I could do almost any minor show on this thing (FSN away feeds, women's college basketball on ERT, stuff like that). Just have to get used to it, because as was previously mentioned, it's a descendant of the DD-35. Very different menus. It's got some other annoying little quirks - like the fact that I can't put a border on a key. Apparently that's coming, soon, in some future software revision. According to the EIC, he put the latest software on it a couple of months ago. Overall, I wouldn't like to see one in a truck (I'm doing a very limited # of effects on this show, so that worked out okay) but I suppose if I had one in a studio I could make it work. I'd still prefer a Sony 8000 in a studio, even over a Kalypso, and I love the Kalypso (but mostly because I'm really familiar with it). I work in one studio that has a Sony and I always wish I had more time on it, because the main TD on it has it doing some really cool stuff that I'm not sure is possible on a Kalypso, at least not yet. Hope this helps at least a little. EDIT: Just noticed that someone mentioned the electronic source name displays on the Kayak. My own opinion on those: they suck. They're so small as to be barely readable, the type on them doesn't "pop" at all, and thus they are next to useless. The Kalypso AND Sony 8000 displays are far superior. So if you don't want tape all over your switcher, avoid the Kayak.

While I expect that I'll once again get slammed for "talking out of school", here is another set of answers to your questions: Has anyone used the Kayak? I have done a lot of testing on the product - It uses hardware designed in Grass Valley & software designed in Weiderstadt...the software is based on the DD series, and as such it operates VERY MUCH like an ExtenDD or a DD-35. If you like that operating system, then you'll feel at home on the Kayak - if you don't like the DD look & feel, then you won't like the Kayak at all. How does it compare to the Kalypso and the 8000? It is a lower- priced product that actually has a surprising number of features: it actually has 6 keyers per M/E, but only 4 keyers are available with the current software. That being said, most of the really advanced features require the use of a DD-Style sidepanel menu application - they aren't available in the current menus. I have tested it up to a 4 1/2 M/E configuration on a 3-M/E panel. I can tell you that the current menu structure (which was designed for only a 1 M/E product and has been left there as the panel has grown) is VERY cumbersome because of its small size - it'll take a lot of getting used to in order to navigate your way through the layers. I figure that if I want punch up the outboard switcher on the main switcher that same sources will have a delay, is that true? I don't think that you'll see any delay - it's just another control surface that's driving the same frame - it's not like you're feeding one switcher through another. But in my opinion the idea of REQUIRING 2 control panels to drive one switcher is pretty bogus. While I was at GV, we were working on a panel that would take full advantage of the Kayak's power. Since I and most of the rest of my team left, I don't know where GV is with the new panel, but if I were you, I'd inquire into this panel if you're serious about the Kayak - I'm sure that you can understand that having ONE panel that drives the whole system runs circles around requiring two panels to do the same thing. Is the Kalypso really worth the premium over the 8000A? That's a personal decision - everyone who prefers the Kalypso will tell you "yes", while everyone who likes the 8000 will tell you "no". They are both good products - I drive both, and can tell you that anything that I can accomplish on an 8000 I can find a way to do one the Kalypso, and vice-versa - although being able to accomplish something on one may require a completly different approach on the other. Although I am a long-time Grass Valley fan, I do think that the 8000 has a more flexible and more powerful user interface. I still contend that that 8000 has a longer potential "lifespan" than Kalypso. Let's face it - if GV does continue with the new Kayak panel that my team was designing, it'll make the Kayak a more powerful switcher than Kalypso. They've already phased out Zodiak in favor of Kayak because of not wanting to have 2 product lines that do the same thing...the ExtenDD is meeting the same fate - it's just being reborn as the Kayak. While GV representatives have posted on this site that they intend to continue Kalypso (by probably porting the Kalypso software onto the Kayak like they did on Zodiak) the big question that you may want to ask (and get a commitment about) is whether GV really will want to support two "big" switcher lines for as long as you intend to have your new switcher.

The 8000A is a teriffic switcher. It can have 4 control panels off of a single chassis, so your boss can still have the remote panel. Unlike the Kayak, the 8000A has full split M/E architecture that will allow you to be able to feed your monitors with the SUB-side of the M/Es without having to give up an entire M/E. I strongly encourage you to investigate the 8000A to its fullest. RE

Honestly I have little knowledge of the Kayak, if you really need 4 ME's then that sounds silly to purchase a 3 ME plus a 1 ME, that is a poor workaround not a solution for when you have a choice. Now everything is optional on Kalypso and the 8K. Are you comparing the same ME's (4), same number of inputs and outputs, how many TE on Kalypso (3 or 6). How many DME's on the 8K, I think they come 2-8 channels. How many chroma keyers on kalypso (they are optional) On 8K chromakeyers are standard on every keyer. If all things are equal then GVG is robbing you, or you are getting a great deal on the 8K (are you on NBC affiliate?) Regardless of price it would be a tough sell for me to pick the Kalypso over the 8K. I have switched on a 4K and Kalypso for many years, so I am not against GVG. I think the DME's on the Sony are much better and can be configured as internal DME's like the Kalypso or external, so you can use aux buses and have combined outputs coming into the switcher. Also you don't need to burn 4 keyers for lets say a quad box even with either DME setup. The Kalypso requires you using a keyer to use the DVE. Also the 8K has DME wipes, which allow you to use your A/B buses for DME moves. The other big thing I think Sony has over the Kalypso is the shotbox and flexi-pad. I think rather then a cheat sheet with all your effects corresponding to emem #'s, having them all there to see is a lot easier when you have 30-40 effects a show. Also depending on your station, but if you have a lot of TD's and end up with one or two building everything, these panels allow you to name effects which in my opinion makes it easier to call up stuff. These panels are very flexible, as opposed to the Kalypso macros which if you want to see the name of the macros require you to lose your source name display. You can argue back and forth all the other aspects of both switchers, but I think they are pretty equal everywhere else. Lastly something to consider is whether this next ver of Kalypso software will be the last, the switcher has been around a while now, seems like it is at the end of it's run as far as new features, etc. Not sure what they are doing with the Kayak, seems like if they were gonna go with a 4 ME, we would have seen it by now. good luck Bill

Kayak's got 4 keyers per M/E, the ability to TE every single keyer in the switcher (though for more than one per M/E you have to buy licenses, up to 9 to fully outfit the switcher), machine control, PBus, GPI, chroma keys, an internal 4-channel stillstore with animation recording and playback, very good external DVE integration (you can preset a source and run a DVE transition just like a mix or a wipe), and electronic source name displays. It's got a menu built into the panel, but for some features you need to buy the external menu panel, or use a laptop with the menu software installed.

[quote="sahonen"]If you could get away with 3 M/Es, though, Kayak does have a pretty good feature set as long as you buy the features.[/quote] I don't know the switcher at all.. so how does the feature set copare to the 8000?

Between running a 1 M/E into a 3 M/E and just buying an 8k, I'd go with the 8k. Kayak's a good switcher, but if you need 4 M/Es, getting a second 1 M/E switcher is not an acceptable option IMHO. Imagine how much space two switcher panels are going to take up in your control room! If you could get away with 3 M/Es, though, Kayak does have a pretty good feature set as long as you buy the features.