An improvement in the Kalypso world I'd like to see that goes along the lines of dissolves on Auxes, is for Bus Linking to also recognize dissolves, instead of having to send that feed over to an ME's B-C-D side.

Another feature that has a button label on the Kalypso, is the "Recall From" button (right now just a place to attach a macro). Would love to see that implemented. Basically, you are on ME3, you hold the "Recall From" button down and call up an EMEM on ME2, that EMEM gets called up on ME3, timeline & all, not ME2. --- Dan

[quote="Bill D"]In regards to saving, would be nice if there was a way Sony would allow you to save your shotbox that you just created, and it was smart enough to also save the effects/snapshots, etc, that the shotbox recall, and name them all under same name as shotbox uses. Right now a little clunky to go through menus and remember all the effect #'s you built, select that region, name it and save it in addition to saving the shot box. Not that I am lazy or anything.[/quote] When I use the shot box, I use the same effect (say P/P) multiple times, so if this comes to any switcher, it better be an option. --- Dan

[quote="Bill D"]In regards to saving, would be nice if there was a way Sony would allow you to save your shotbox that you just created, and it was smart enough to also save the effects/snapshots, etc, that the shotbox recall, and name them all under same name as shotbox uses. Right now a little clunky to go through menus and remember all the effect #'s you built, select that region, name it and save it in addition to saving the shot box. Not that I am lazy or anything.[/quote] That's a really good call. It's not always a matter of laziness. Sometimes you're in a hurry and you'd swear you saved each individual parameter...

In regards to saving, would be nice if there was a way Sony would allow you to save your shotbox that you just created, and it was smart enough to also save the effects/snapshots, etc, that the shotbox recall, and name them all under same name as shotbox uses. Right now a little clunky to go through menus and remember all the effect #'s you built, select that region, name it and save it in addition to saving the shot box. Not that I am lazy or anything.

[quote="Mike Ser"]Point taken---1000 macros would be pleasing...but consider: I work in a multi-control room (6 and growing) control room environment where you ping-pong from control room to control room. You want to keep all the rooms up to date. It sounds simple enough, but you end up piece-mealing more than you want to as new graphic material gets made, while you're live (with, as Bill D said earlier, a limited amount of pre-pro). The DD method of inserting of macros into timeline (trigger events/native commands, whatever term you like) was nice because when copying a TL into another (read: all the other) control room(s), all the content was contained in the timeline. You don't have to worry if the macro play/triggers the timeline references are at the same register in each config/setup/show file, etc. when it comes time to run that timeline. Gets dicey when you're expecting an undercut and some other TD has changed, say, macro 97 to an animation recall that morning without telling anyone, etc. .[/quote] 6 control rooms...and I am sure they aren't all "exactly the same"... Having it in the timeline also means you don't have to save macros and effects... Not a huge deal if you are doing "all file loads"..(Sony 8000), but saves time if you have to do a few effects all separately. oh...and virgils sounds good to me!! Curt

[quote="XLNTeditor"][quote="Mike Ser"]Bill/Curt,Also (forgive me if someone already brought this up), as far as macros in timelines, obviously that's huge, but it's even better when done the DD way: insert the macro into the timeline, then have ability to still delete the macro from the panel so it's not eating up register space. The content of the macro (or keystrokes/menu manipulation) still exists in the timeline even though you've deleted the macro from the panel. Rather than triggering a macro that lives on the panel, you're pasting the content of the macro into the TL. Very efficient in terms of register space.[/quote] I figured it was done that way because of the limitation of the number of macros you could have. Doesn't that feature become moot if you have 1000 macro files available to recall? Plus if I do it the DD way and deleted the macro files from the timeline, but now I need to make a change to one of those macro steps, I need to re-record the macro from scratch and re-insert it back into the timeline. I'm not sure but I may need to redo the timeline too in order to get rid of the old macro keystrokes. If I have 1000 macro files and just leave the macros attached to the timeline, if I need to change any of the macro steps I just edit the macro and I'm done. Irv[/quote] Point taken---1000 macros would be pleasing...but consider: I work in a multi-control room (6 and growing) control room environment where you ping-pong from control room to control room. You want to keep all the rooms up to date. It sounds simple enough, but you end up piece-mealing more than you want to as new graphic material gets made, while you're live (with, as Bill D said earlier, a limited amount of pre-pro). The DD method of inserting of macros into timeline (trigger events/native commands, whatever term you like) was nice because when copying a TL into another (read: all the other) control room(s), all the content was contained in the timeline. You don't have to worry if the macro play/triggers the timeline references are at the same register in each config/setup/show file, etc. when it comes time to run that timeline. Gets dicey when you're expecting an undercut and some other TD has changed, say, macro 97 to an animation recall that morning without telling anyone, etc. Just made my life easier in terms of keeping things organized. As Bob said, when it's time to edit the macro content inside the TL, just use the editor. Don't have to rebuild the original macro and don't have to re-do the TL, just edit macro content within TL.

[quote="Dan Berger"]I think another thing that needs to be in the next switcher (& some have started), is the ability to deal with the whole 4x3 / 16x9 debacle. I hate being in a hi-def truck with a Beta deck that needs to hit air, and have to ask the EIC to set the output to the right aspect ratio. The worst is when that deck has both 4x3 elements & 16x9 elements in the show, the EIC has to be at the ready to switch it for you. I should be able to change the aspect ratio in the switcher, & add side flags if necessary, without tying up a channel of DVE. Some of the switchers have started to deal with this issue, and even though we are supposed to be hi-def in less than a year. this problem will not go away for a long time. --- Dan[/quote] The Sony 8000G does all this today. Has done side flags (without using any keyers) since 2006 and since the 8000G, mixes formats. You can adjust different aspect ratios at will with macros. RE

[quote="Dan Berger"]... and even though we are supposed to be hi-def in less than a year. this problem will not go away for a long time. --- Dan[/quote] The biggest misconception around. There is no requirement for ANY broadcast to be Hi-Def. The 2/17/09 deadline is for over-the-air broadcasts to go to digital transmission. Those broadcasts can still be 4x3/SD.

[quote="Bill D"]So for a new switcher or even a current one, let me build a regular timeline that allows me to do this, select crosspoint on key 4 to DDR, insert keyframe, undercut, lose key. I want to at any given time go with or clean of any of the other 3 keyers.[/quote] The Kayak does this. In your timeline, when you make the undercut, have it cut "all selected". Then whatever you have lit for your next transition will cut underneath. Probably the best single feature of the Kayak.

I think another thing that needs to be in the next switcher (& some have started), is the ability to deal with the whole 4x3 / 16x9 debacle. I hate being in a hi-def truck with a Beta deck that needs to hit air, and have to ask the EIC to set the output to the right aspect ratio. The worst is when that deck has both 4x3 elements & 16x9 elements in the show, the EIC has to be at the ready to switch it for you. I should be able to change the aspect ratio in the switcher, & add side flags if necessary, without tying up a channel of DVE. Some of the switchers have started to deal with this issue, and even though we are supposed to be hi-def in less than a year. this problem will not go away for a long time. --- Dan

[quote="XLNTeditor"]Plus if I do it the DD way and deleted the macro files from the timeline, but now I need to make a change to one of those macro steps, I need to re-record the macro from scratch and re-insert it back into the timeline. Irv[/quote] If you're doing it the true DD way, then you can use the aftermarket off-line macro text editor to change or insert steps into your macro - same with the SONY. If you're dealing with a Kalypso, it can't do off-line editing for one reason: the guy that wrote the macro routine for the Kalypso didn't want to do any more on the project than he had to...he was pulled off to work on the Kayak before all of the macro niceities could have been finished.

[quote="Mike Ser"]Bill/Curt,Also (forgive me if someone already brought this up), as far as macros in timelines, obviously that's huge, but it's even better when done the DD way: insert the macro into the timeline, then have ability to still delete the macro from the panel so it's not eating up register space. The content of the macro (or keystrokes/menu manipulation) still exists in the timeline even though you've deleted the macro from the panel. Rather than triggering a macro that lives on the panel, you're pasting the content of the macro into the TL. Very efficient in terms of register space.[/quote] I figured it was done that way because of the limitation of the number of macros you could have. Doesn't that feature become moot if you have 1000 macro files available to recall? Plus if I do it the DD way and deleted the macro files from the timeline, but now I need to make a change to one of those macro steps, I need to re-record the macro from scratch and re-insert it back into the timeline. I'm not sure but I may need to redo the timeline too in order to get rid of the old macro keystrokes. If I have 1000 macro files and just leave the macros attached to the timeline, if I need to change any of the macro steps I just edit the macro and I'm done. Irv

[quote="Mike Ser"]Also (forgive me if someone already brought this up), as far as macros in timelines, obviously that's huge, but it's even better when done the DD way: insert the macro into the timeline, then have ability to still delete the macro from the panel so it's not eating up register space. The content of the macro (or keystrokes/menu manipulation) still exists in the timeline even though you've deleted the macro from the panel. Rather than triggering a macro that lives on the panel, you're pasting the content of the macro into the TL. Very efficient in terms of register space. Mike[/quote] I'd love to have the kind of macro commands the DD series had. While macros that record your button pushes are great, having access to all those absolute and relative commands would be awesome too. It'd be nice to say, ME3>Key1>ON, in addition to ME3>Key1>CUT. Maybe a Macro timeline level that lets you insert keyframes that contain commands that can control the entire switcher globally. Speaking of macros in timelines, can we have the ability to run more than one macro at once? If for some reason I have a macro that runs for 5 seconds, I'd like the ability to run another macro that does an unrelated task, or run a timeline that contains macro commands, without interrupting the currently running macro. I realize we could have macros that conflict each other, trying to both recall clips from a DDR for example but that's why we get paid the big bucks- a big part of our job is resource management. Can the macros be frame accurate? The iPhone has more computing power than most switchers it seems.

Bill/Curt, I'd like to reserve a seat at the proposed luncheon! (I suggest Virgil's on 44th). While we're at it, the manufacturers can buy a few drinks as well. Love all the ideas...I think my two biggest basic needs are more macros and ability to float keyers downstream, or just plain more dsk's. Need ability to abort out of the "0" pause as well...Told that's coming. Also (forgive me if someone already brought this up), as far as macros in timelines, obviously that's huge, but it's even better when done the DD way: insert the macro into the timeline, then have ability to still delete the macro from the panel so it's not eating up register space. The content of the macro (or keystrokes/menu manipulation) still exists in the timeline even though you've deleted the macro from the panel. Rather than triggering a macro that lives on the panel, you're pasting the content of the macro into the TL. Very efficient in terms of register space. Mike

[quote="Bill D"]Oh and just a little rant about switcher development, I know sports pushes a lot of what is developed as can be seen in some of the designs. If the switcher manufactures want to find out what is really needed take a stop into NYC one day and visit MSNBC, Fox News/ Fox Biz, and CNN. CNBC is also near by in NJ. These are the channels that are on air all day and will have the needs to do more and more then what is ever required for a lot of productions. This is a not a knock on anyone else, but these networks are constantly pushing what is done on air, very often the TD is working SS, bugs, rolling servers for tape playback and other external devices. They are constantly being asked to throw more and more crap on the air at any given minute. Pre production time if any before a show is no more then an hour. Then you do the show and go on to another. If you want some ideas get a few of those TD?s all in a room, buy them lunch and have a chat. No worries about all the competing channels together at once they pretty much all know each other anyway. Oh and if the food is free, I would come by and atleast get to see some friends I haven't seen in a while and a nice meal. Ok done with rant :) hahahah[/quote] I for one would enjoy that lunch! Would be easy..especially b/c we are all w/in a few block radius of eachother for the most part..!! I would be happy to meet w/ anyone to talk about upcoming switcher ideas as they apply to news..

Some have mentioned the DDR trans as a nice feature that the Kahuna and Xtend software switchers have. This works great for the small amount of animations you can store in the internal drive. A network could never use this as a primary DDR. Why not take this a step further as a new optioned feature move the DDR to an external Frame as an option similar to SONY DME's. The frame has raid drives with different levels of optional storage, take a Nexio/Profile DDR as an example. A server that can run multiple channels. You can slide in your internal FM/SS control cards. So if you have 8 channels of internal SS now, those will be the same but it will look at this giant server for clips or stills. You then can slide in more of the same cards so multiple switchers in a facility can access this same storage. Since we are already used to having 8 channels of internal plus any current external, just throw us a few more channels maybe 12 total per switcher. Same way switcher pairs stuff now can be done for F/K or left for just bgds. GFX could send in these elements through a drop box of some kind, operater does not have to do any kind of importing on the switcher end (think Thunder). The control of these channels would allow you to mark you own in/outs,loops, 3 point loops etc. I believe quicktime allows you now to send in clips with alpha channel embedded and there are quicktime marks that allow gfx artist to put in the looping and 3 point loop info into quicktime file. This would all be read by this 'server' and play accordingly. With some switchers we were able to eliminate external DME's and have great control of these internal DVE's through the switcher, why not do the same for DDR's.

[quote="Bill D"]So for a new switcher or even a current one, let me build a regular timeline that allows me to do this, select crosspoint on key 4 to DDR, insert keyframe, undercut, lose key. I want to at any given time go with or clean of any of the other 3 keyers. I know the kalypso cannot do this nor the sony, Kahuna? not sure.[/quote] One of the things I like about Kahuna is that I don't need to build a timeline to do what you ask. I'm assuming you are describing an animated transition which we call a clip transition. The animation(s) is/are loaded into a Store(s). Select that Store on Key4 and tell Key4 to perform Clip transitions instead of mixes or wipes. In the transition area select Background and Key4 and turn the keyer on. When you pull the fader or hit Auto Trans, the animated transition is performed. Now for your situation, you save the DMEM with Key4 Enabled, Sources Enabled, and Background Enabled but with the sub-enables for Bus A and Bus B turned off (so you can transition between any background sources). Since Keys 1, 2, & 3 are turned off for the DMEM save and not remembered, you can preset them on or off either before or after your recall the DMEM and have the animated transition happen either with those keys or clean. I usually make a macro with a nice bitmap label to recall the effect with one button so I don't have to remember the numbers. Cheers, -= Ken =-

I agree with some comments above, at the very least having the timeline menu to be broken done by atleast each keyer and bgd, etc It would be a nice idea as suggested to use sub tress to get into more detail to control if wanted. Rick I agree about the Sony having that nice off status for each keyer, and not sure how Kahuna handles this but there is only one problem. Lets say I want to just turn on key 4 for a transition. I want to not care about status of keys 1,2,3. Easy to do, but what if I want to transition with k1 and k2. Can't do it b/c timeline remembers your transition module as part of the effect. Okay now you can go on the Sony and turn off trans (I think that is where it is). So this allows you to select your next trans to change bgd, k1, k2. You select those and you think ok I am going with k1, k2. Nope those keys never go on, the effect allows you to select them but you can't go with. So this can be done easily with a macro but why do I have to create a bunch of macros on a Kalypso to insert in a timeline. On a Sony I have to be locked into a macro to do a trans, in which case if you have a macro to recall with a zero pause and then take to finish you will get smoked b/c you can't get out of that zero pause without remember which effect you called up before. So you end up with two macros, recall and run. Which works, just not best scenario when you only have 99 macros. So for a new switcher or even a current one, let me build a regular timeline that allows me to do this, select crosspoint on key 4 to DDR, insert keyframe, undercut, lose key. I want to at any given time go with or clean of any of the other 3 keyers. I know the kalypso cannot do this nor the sony, Kahuna? not sure. I bought up this feature to someone at GVG way back when kalyspo was just released (pause was just added to the software, so it was early on). At the time the work around was GPI loopbacks, which I was already doing on a 4K. That work around stayed that way until macros came out (many years later) Oh and just a little rant about switcher development, I know sports pushes a lot of what is developed as can be seen in some of the designs. If the switcher manufactures want to find out what is really needed take a stop into NYC one day and visit MSNBC, Fox News/ Fox Biz, and CNN. CNBC is also near by in NJ. These are the channels that are on air all day and will have the needs to do more and more then what is ever required for a lot of productions. This is a not a knock on anyone else, but these networks are constantly pushing what is done on air, very often the TD is working SS, bugs, rolling servers for tape playback and other external devices. They are constantly being asked to throw more and more crap on the air at any given minute. Pre production time if any before a show is no more then an hour. Then you do the show and go on to another. If you want some ideas get a few of those TD?s all in a room, buy them lunch and have a chat. No worries about all the competing channels together at once they pretty much all know each other anyway. Oh and if the food is free, I would come by and atleast get to see some friends I haven't seen in a while and a nice meal. Ok done with rant :) hahahah

[quote="Rick Edwards"][quote="mtiffee"]I'd be happy with just turning off a keyer and all associated parameters in a timeline. Just leave the keyer alone. Like in the Kalypso PATH menu, many of these parameters (video proc, keyer wipe, box gen, etc.) are already addressed path wise. Why can't we have an "OFF" path and parameters like Keyer (on/off) status?[/quote] the Sony 8000 has exactly this, from day one. Set the path on any timeline parameter to OFF and that part of the switcher will be completely ignored during timeline playback. RE[/quote] Kahuna has had this too. For example, each keyer and the background on each M/E have their own timelines which makes it easy to build and offset keyframes from each other. In addition to turning these individual timelines on and off, there are sub-enables with on/off flags. For the keyers you can turn on or off things like Source, Mixer, CCR, Border, Mask, Resizer, and Modulate. For the Background timeline you can turn on and off Bus A source, Bus B source, Mixer, CCR, Key Priority, Utility Buses and Modulation. What Kahuna does not have is partial keyframing. Cheers, -= Ken =-

[quote="mtiffee"]That's one of the many things I love about the SONY. I don't understand why it can't be added to the Kalypso and future TGV switchers.[/quote] Actually, funny thing.... I think that goes back to the DVS-8000, which came out in 1991 or 1992 RE

That's one of the many things I love about the SONY. I don't understand why it can't be added to the Kalypso and future TGV switchers.

[quote="mtiffee"]I'd be happy with just turning off a keyer and all associated parameters in a timeline. Just leave the keyer alone. Like in the Kalypso PATH menu, many of these parameters (video proc, keyer wipe, box gen, etc.) are already addressed path wise. Why can't we have an "OFF" path and parameters like Keyer (on/off) status?[/quote] the Sony 8000 has exactly this, from day one. Set the path on any timeline parameter to OFF and that part of the switcher will be completely ignored during timeline playback. RE

[quote="Bob Ennis"]To properly do partial keyframing on this ONE parameter meant a separate timeline for width, opacity, softness, soft symmetry, color wash position, color wash softness, color wash rotation, hue, luminance, chroma, and border positioning (at least 11 things). Now start considering all of the other parameters that are involved in just one keyer, multiply that times all of the keyers on all of the M/E's, and add to that all of the other individual functions that happen on each M/E. You can see how all but the highest-end TD's would have taken a look at the HUGE number of potential timelines and run away.[/quote] I'd be happy with just turning off a keyer and all associated parameters in a timeline. Just leave the keyer alone. Like in the Kalypso PATH menu, many of these parameters (video proc, keyer wipe, box gen, etc.) are already addressed path wise. Why can't we have an "OFF" path and parameters like Keyer (on/off) status? And couldn't all these timelines be "tree'd" kind of like the path menu. You can learn all parameters for key 1 or open the tree and tweak individual parameters. Think After Effects- in AE, if you add a filter to a layer, you can select the filter and globally modify all paramters on a keyframe. Or you can expand the filter to expose all the individual parameters and modify those individually. A system like that keeps timelines simple for those who want it simple, like it is now, but if you want to get more advanced, you can go deeper in the timeline and tweak little things. I must say, the Kalypso is very easy to setup and that is HUGE. I just came in at 5am for a 10:30am air CBS show and setup 95% of everything in 50 minutes. I probably could've been done with everything in 1 hour but the clocks wern't on and I was still missing a few elements.

I was just watching one of the most watched national TV shows and came up with this one (proof of why I write off my DirecTV & TIVO). Again, probably not original... we already have key re-sizers/TE on every keyer, how about on the Auxes too. It would be especially useful when sending to a plasma that is set on its side. Already being able to add keyers & dissolves & such into an Aux has been suggested (& already in some switchers), but while watching this well know show the other day, and seeing some plasmas on their sides, it occurred to me then. Would free up a DVE channel, and wouldn't need an external box on the plasma. Oh... and blame my wife for getting me into watching this well known show, which she barely watches now. Rick, thanks for the advice, I knew someone would have better ways of doing things here, but again, some times you gotta dig around more than you should. I show people all the time how to do things a little easier, and they all appreciate it, so I definitely appreciate what others have to offer me. Steve, missed ya last week in LA, your nephew is great! I'll send you some pix. --- Dan

[quote="Bill D"]I agree partial keyframing should be on every switcher. For the most part you can get around it with macros.[/quote] Apparently my last posting to this got magically deleted, so let me try again, this time without naming names... Most of those of you who know me know that I was on a team a few years ago for a certain manufacturer to help design the same thing that Geoff is now being asked to contribute to (I'm thrilled that he's being included in the process). We had developed, among other things, the blueprint for a full switcher partial keyframing system. But there was a problem...let me take as an example just ONE function - keyer border. To properly do partial keyframing on this ONE parameter meant a separate timeline for width, opacity, softness, soft symmetry, color wash position, color wash softness, color wash rotation, hue, luminance, chroma, and border positioning (at least 11 things). Now start considering all of the other parameters that are involved in just one keyer, multiply that times all of the keyers on all of the M/E's, and add to that all of the other individual functions that happen on each M/E. You can see how all but the highest-end TD's would have taken a look at the HUGE number of potential timelines and run away. The trick will be to include all of the complexity that we as users have been asking about and make it so simple that the lower-end folks (who outnumber the high-end folks by about 10-to-1 and are thus the vast majority of the end-users) will have no problems or traps. That's a tall order. As I stated elsewhere, pretty much everything that's being offered here was about 90% on the drawing board by myself and one other team member about 2 years ago, but it was never submitted or pursued - one reason was the overwhelming complexity to the user...so be careful what you wish for. :)

[quote="Lou Delgresiano"]I hate to say it, but I'm sure a lot of folks on this board would agree that it'd be fine and dandy if it only said, "Sony" or "Grass Valley" on it.[/quote] You're not the first one to say it. Many people have told us that the lack of either of those names was the main missing feature. :) Cheers, -= Ken =-

[quote="Dan Berger"]Probably the one things that I do like about the Dveous that should be in any new DVE, is that when you have a V+K, you can move the key separately from the video. But not so it takes a 4 channel box and makes it a 2 channel box, defeats the purpose of a 4 channel box.[/quote] Hey Dan -- Technically, the Dveous isn't a 4 channel box. It's a 2 twin-channel box, where each twin channel can be either video/video or video/key. Just because we all use it as a 4-video-channel box doesn't mean that's how it was designed :-) And I agree with you, and made the suggestion on Geoff's website -- any internal TE/DVE/DME should have the ability to separate the parameters for the video and key sides (how much easier would clock positioning - especially for the current ESPN requirements - be if we could split the video and key halfs of the Kalypso's transform engine?). Hope to see you soon, -Steve

[quote="Dan Berger"]Speaking of easy, and how many button pushes.. how many menus do you have to go into just show a safety zone in a PVW monitor on the Sony 8k? Things like that should be easy. Menu > Safety zone > 4 x 3 on/off, 16 x 19 on/off, user on/off. Etc. I'm tired of digging through menus to find simple stuff. Also on the Sony, want to change your keyer trans rates, nope, not under ME or Keyer, it's under Misc. Makes no sense. I'm tired of the reasoning... "Well this talks to the Frame, and this talks to the Panel, so that's why this is in this menu, and that is in that menu." I'm talking to the switcher, I don't care where it takes place. All switchers I've used have that issue. EASY! & now I'll add INTUITIVE! (go hand-in-hand) --- Dan[/quote] Dan, The answer to the first topic is.... ONE keystroke. Just assign the command to one of the empty preference buttons on the menu, shotbox, or the new KEY2/KEY4 utility bus mode. Then you can toggle any of the 48 different safe area generators (one discreet generator for each output) at will. You can easily set any key transition rate by holding down the AUTO TRANS button in either the Flexipad or the Master Panel and touching the keyer button on the transition module. On the flexipad, the lower-right button will say "ENTER KEYx" (x meaning the keyer number), on the Master Panel it will say MExKEYx and let you type the rate. ' If you want to know any more tricks, let me know :-) RE

[quote="kschneider"]DDR Transitions? Kahuna has had those since day one. They are called Clip Transitions. Clips that are loaded into the Stores can be tied to the fader arm or Auto Trans. No need to build a timeline - just save as a DMEM. For the show, you can recall the effect from a list on the GUI or call it up with a macro so you can preview it and then hit Auto Trans. If you feel daring, you can build the macro to recall the Clip Transition and run it simultaneously with one button press. Oh, DVE Transitions are available too with a library of preset transitions or build your own. Define Keyer States in macros? Again, been there since day one in Kahuna. You can learn the key either as a toggle or an On/Off state. 1000 Macros? Again... Kahuna has 1000 macros, 1000 DMEMs, 1000 GMEMs, 1000 DVE-MEMs and 1000 clips/stills per Project. Then multiply that times 99 Projects. That should be enough. Engineering Setup on a laptop? The Kahuna Manager application (which was released at Kahuna's introduction) allows you to name your external inputs and internal sources and save the ENG Config. You can also build your Crosspoint Map on the app and load it along with your ENG Config when you get on-site using a USB memory stick or hard drive. Internal CG? Sorry Lou. You got us on that one. :-) Didn't the old Abekas A82 and A83 switchers have an internal slate generator? Cheers, -= Ken =-[/quote] I hate to say it, but I'm sure a lot of folks on this board would agree that it'd be fine and dandy if it only said, "Sony" or "Grass Valley" on it.

Probably the one things that I do like about the Dveous that should be in any new DVE, is that when you have a V+K, you can move the key separately from the video. But not so it takes a 4 channel box and makes it a 2 channel box, defeats the purpose of a 4 channel box. Oh, and feel free to defend the Dveous all you want, I think it does a lot of good stuff too, and I never said it can't do the stuff I mentioned, except for partial key frames... but remember what else have I said in here, EASY! Want to defocus something in the Dveous... how many button pushes does it take? Speaking of easy, and how many button pushes.. how many menus do you have to go into just show a safety zone in a PVW monitor on the Sony 8k? Things like that should be easy. Menu > Safety zone > 4 x 3 on/off, 16 x 19 on/off, user on/off. Etc. I'm tired of digging through menus to find simple stuff. Also on the Sony, want to change your keyer trans rates, nope, not under ME or Keyer, it's under Misc. Makes no sense. I'm tired of the reasoning... "Well this talks to the Frame, and this talks to the Panel, so that's why this is in this menu, and that is in that menu." I'm talking to the switcher, I don't care where it takes place. All switchers I've used have that issue. EASY! & now I'll add INTUITIVE! (go hand-in-hand) --- Dan

[quote="Perry my Cat"]Getting off the path of the switcher ideas I must defend the dveous. It can do all the things you are saying it can't do. The dveous is awesome.[/quote] I agree the DVEous is 'awesome' and when I used it every day for 9 years I was able to do some amazing effects but it does not do partial keyframe stuff, beyond defocus and other global commands, which are lumped into global. I used light source on everything I built, but you had to build the lite source into the channel timeline that you were already using to fly or move stuff around. If there was partial keyframe editing light source would have it's own timeline. I never worked on a Krystal but this is pretty much what it did have (not to mention 4 channels of v/k) :)

[quote="Bill D"]One other thing that Ken failed to mention is that the Kahuna I believe does machine control through ethernet or serial and supports pretty much every protocol including AMP. This shocked me when I saw this at NAB last year.[/quote] Yes, this is true. We have a pretty long list of router, tape machine, server, editor and other protocols over RS422 and ethernet. In fact, we have been told that our AMP control and interface is better than the company that developed it has on their own switchers. I didn't mention it previously because I didn't want to start listing all the things that Kahuna can do that are different or missing on others ? that's not the purpose of this thread. If I see a feature request for something that is already available on Kahuna I will politely mention that fact. Otherwise I'll keep my mouth shut (or my fingers still). :) If anyone has any Kahuna-specific questions or comments we can go over to the Snell & Wilcox forum. You can also stop by the booth next month at NAB and say Hi. I'll be glad to show you the new stuff. Cheers, -= Ken =-

Getting off the path of the switcher ideas I must defend the dveous. It can do all the things you are saying it can't do. The dveous is awesome.

I agree partial keyframing should be on every switcher. For the most part you can get around it with macros. If you ever tried adding a light source to a DVEous effect after you already finished building the effect, then you realize where partial keyframe editing would come in handy. One other thing that Ken failed to mention is that the Kahuna I believe does machine control through ethernet or serial and supports pretty much every protocol including AMP. This shocked me when I saw this at NAB last year. Sony seems to be fine with supporting just Louth through serial only, and as long as it plays nice with an EVS it must be great. I mean Odetics has been out for how many years now, atleast throw that in there. So better machince control, basically take the functionality of BUF, DNF panel and put it into the switcher. There are animations out there that require looping and 3 point looping, etc. Lance is great but P-bus is awful. Oh and support all protocols, Louth, Odetics, AMP and anything else you can think of.

Bob, I'm glad you explained the partial KF's, I would'a messed it all up. The Krystal also had 2 global channels, and a camera channel, and macros (early for its time for macros). Plus the way it was designed, you didn't have to be in a menu in order to do locate, size, rotate, etc. Your menu could be in the defocus section, manipulating that and moving the image across the screen at the same time. The Kalypso has a similar design for its TE's. On a Dveous, you can somewhat get partial KF's by having the global channels on a different timeline, so you can get defocus & other things to change around a different path. But then the Dveous is the least intuitive thing I have ever seen. Try to do a defocus on it, or an opacity change, or key a CG. --- Dan

[quote="XLNTeditor"]So what if you wanted the rotation to happen only between keyframes 3 & 4? How would you do that with partial keyframing? Or would you have to turn off partial keyframing (if you could)? Irv[/quote] If you turned off partial keyframing, you'd be dropping a rotation KF at every KF...so that's one way of accomplishing the KF 3-to-4 rotation. The other way was to go to KF 3, change the rotation, then zero it out...the change caused a rotation KF to get dropped there too. It worked very well & was very intuitive. I would ask the question in my classes: "suppose you wanted to START the rotation between KF's 2 & 3, but didn't want to affect the existing path...how would you do that?" Partial keyframing was the answer. BTW, partial keyframing is used on virtually all animation programs that use camera channels, so the new crop of TD's that are getting into the field from Animation or Post Production already understand the concepts & it's almost 2nd nature to them.

[quote="SeanPage"]I've heard talk that embedded audio on frame memory clips is coming soon to the 8000G as well. Also how about some kind of display that will show you what macros you have attatched. I have my whole dsk1 crosspoint row filled with macros and without a piece of tape layed across the top of p/p I have no idea what's attatched where unless I go to a menu.[/quote] MVS V7.20 (nab) has audio capability on the frame memory. On MVS, just go to the MACRO->Attachment menu and it will show you all the macros that are attached on the whole switcher. RE

[quote="Bob Ennis"]Thus, if you built a 4-KF move that moved the image around the screen, then go to KF 4 & rotate the image on the Z-axis by .5, then rewind & run the effect, the rotation would happen over the entire course of the move, rather than in-between the 3rd & 4th KF's.[/quote] So what if you wanted the rotation to happen only between keyframes 3 & 4? How would you do that with partial keyframing? Or would you have to turn off partial keyframing (if you could)? Irv

In the Krystal, when you did an INSERT, you'd only be inserting on parameters that changed. Thus, if you built a 4-KF move that moved the image around the screen, then go to KF 4 & rotate the image on the Z-axis by .5, then rewind & run the effect, the rotation would happen over the entire course of the move, rather than in-between the 3rd & 4th KF's. Or if you have an existing effect & go in-between KF's 1 & 2 & turn on a border, only the border gets a KF at that point...the effect will run just as it did: on other DVE's, the insertion of the border KF would louse up the path of the original move. I agree with Dan - the Krystal was probably the most user-friendly DVE ever built. Hopefully the new one that's coupled to the new switcher that's getting ready to be released will be as user-friendly.

[quote="Dan Berger"]So, bring back partial key frames into the internal DVE's. The Kalypso had a button for it. While we're at it, make partial keyframes available on the entire switcher.[/quote] Define "partial keyframes". If I remember correctly it was every parameter having it's own timeline? Irv

The GVG Krystal has got to be the best overall DVE I have ever worked on... not so much of what it could do, but partial key frames was so powerful. I keep hearing "No body uses DVE's anymore" when you are on a DVE intensive show with an Abakas A57 (or whatever the old one is). But we all know that we still use DVE's, otherwise they wouldn't build them into the switcher at all now, and offer a DVE channel on every keyer. So, bring back partial key frames into the internal DVE's. The Kalypso had a button for it. While we're at it, make partial keyframes available on the entire switcher. The other thing, & I think I've talked with others around here about this, waveform & vector scope built into the switcher, cause no one supplies monitors for them anymore. Maybe 1 out of 10 trucks or control rooms I walk into has them, then they don't work. When building effects, and you want to match a color from a graphic into your wipe border, it is imperative to have scopes. I keep hearing, it's digital, you don't need them anymore. I'm not checking for timing, I'm checking for levels! As much as I hate the Kayak, one thing I did see done was to run an animation via the fader bar, and have it do the transition. Again, not new, but as everything else on the Kayak, it was a pain in the a** to program. Let's keep in mind that all these ideas are great, but also remember that when you get a 6 hour window to build a show, have a 1 hour break, fax cameras, some pre-pro, etc, the switcher has got to be user friendly and easy. We are not computer programmers who need to know code, and click this link to make this active in this menu so you can use it on this button... easy! I know these things aren't new ideas, I just want to see them. --- Dan

[quote="SeanPage"]I've heard talk that embedded audio on frame memory clips is coming soon to the 8000G as well.[/quote] Who else can see issues with this? Client X uses an 8000G at home but their facilities folks, who don't know a switcher from a grapefruit, approve a truck with an 8000 not knowing that 1+1 in this case doesn't equal 2. Not bashing Sony here, just knowing how things work at least in the remote world. Producer or director bring a hard drive to load their clips, no elements tape...

I've heard talk that embedded audio on frame memory clips is coming soon to the 8000G as well. Also how about some kind of display that will show you what macros you have attatched. I have my whole dsk1 crosspoint row filled with macros and without a piece of tape layed across the top of p/p I have no idea what's attatched where unless I go to a menu.

[quote="sahonen"]The one problem I see with running the animations out of internal memory is that you can't get audio with the clips... Unless the Kahuna actually can play back audio from its clip store? That would be awesome.[/quote] The Stores in Kahuna are capable of 7.1 Surround Sound. The audio can be recorded into the Stores as embedded audio or imported as .WAV files. It is then played out with the video as embedded audio through any Aux Bus. Cheers, -= Ken =-

That's really cool Ken, I'm glad you guys thought of it before I did. With all the work you guys are doing on making a great switcher it's a shame that fewer people are picking it up. The one problem I see with running the animations out of internal memory is that you can't get audio with the clips... Unless the Kahuna actually can play back audio from its clip store? That would be awesome. [quote=""Rick Edwards""]As for the Keyer state in macros, Sony has had that feature, along with full macro editing capabilty, for at least three years.[/quote] I realize that some switchers will have some of the features we're suggesting already, but since we don't know which manufacturer is taking suggestions I think we should suggest features that are missing from any of the major brands even if one of them already has them.

DDR Transitions? Kahuna has had those since day one. They are called Clip Transitions. Clips that are loaded into the Stores can be tied to the fader arm or Auto Trans. No need to build a timeline - just save as a DMEM. For the show, you can recall the effect from a list on the GUI or call it up with a macro so you can preview it and then hit Auto Trans. If you feel daring, you can build the macro to recall the Clip Transition and run it simultaneously with one button press. Oh, DVE Transitions are available too with a library of preset transitions or build your own. Define Keyer States in macros? Again, been there since day one in Kahuna. You can learn the key either as a toggle or an On/Off state. 1000 Macros? Again... Kahuna has 1000 macros, 1000 DMEMs, 1000 GMEMs, 1000 DVE-MEMs and 1000 clips/stills per Project. Then multiply that times 99 Projects. That should be enough. Engineering Setup on a laptop? The Kahuna Manager application (which was released at Kahuna's introduction) allows you to name your external inputs and internal sources and save the ENG Config. You can also build your Crosspoint Map on the app and load it along with your ENG Config when you get on-site using a USB memory stick or hard drive. Internal CG? Sorry Lou. You got us on that one. :-) Didn't the old Abekas A82 and A83 switchers have an internal slate generator? Cheers, -= Ken =-

[quote="sahonen"]Two features that I think would go over really well: Make "DDR" an actual transition type along with your dissolve and wipe. The DD35 had a DVE transition which allowed you to simply preview your next source, hit auto trans, and it would route your program and preview sources to the DVE, take the DVE, run it, then cut to your "preview" source all automatically. I want to see something like this for DDRs, I think it would save a lot of time if instead of having to build a timeline for every single DDR transition we could simply define a few things about the transition and have the switcher handle it. My imagined actual usage: During setup you clip all your animations in the lance like you do already. In the engineering menu you define the P-Bus address your Lance is sitting on as what will be used for DDR Transitions, and you also define your DDR sources in source patch. Behind the scenes the switcher should still send P-Bus commands to the Lance to maintain backward compatibility with hardware currently on the market, it's just that now those commands aren't tied to E-Mems anymore. Next you go into your DDR Trans menu and for each register, you define the number of frames before starting the underdissolve, the length of the underdissolve (0 for a cut), and the total length of the animation before the DDR is unkeyed (or if it should stay keyed afterward). For the show you can either select transitions from the menu or use macros to call them up. Then just preview your next source and hit auto trans. When you execute a transition, it looks for which keyer on your current M/E has the DDR in it. If no keyer has the DDR, it will automatically grab an unused keyer and set it to highest (or other user definable) priority for the duration of the transition. In case all 4 are keyed you define a keyer which will be over-ridden for the duration of the transition i.e. the telestrator. After the transition it restores whatever was in there before. This is mainly aimed at the poor dual feed TDs who have lots of stuff to key and not enough keyers. The other feature I'd like to see is the ability to define keyer states rather than button presses in macros. I want to be able to say "auto trans keyer1 off" and not have it turn on if it's already off. I think the Philips-based switchers already do this.[/quote] I understand that Sony will be adding just this on their software release at NAB. You 'll be able to use a frame memory clip, just like DME WIPE by using the Auto Trans or fader arm. I'm looking forward to seeing that one.... As for the Keyer state in macros, Sony has had that feature, along with full macro editing capabilty, for at least three years. Sony even allows you to edit the macros while you're recording them, so if you make a mistake just go back a few stpe and change the setp, then keep adding new steps. Very cool. RE

I would have posted in the freelancetv.com forum, but I needed to wait to get my registration approved. It was quicker just to post it here.

John, I was just trying to get all the information and discussion into one common thread... which obviously isn't happening. I posted on a few different sites trying to direct people to the thread over on my site. Thanks to everyone who has offered input so far. Please keep it up. I'll bring all of this with me along with my own ideas. They're asking for ways to improve the current generation of switcher, as well as "outside the box" ideas for future products. And Lou, you're right... they've asked me not to disclose anything at all. Keep those ideas coming!