[quote="sahonen"]Good thing we work in an industry that's practically impossible to outsource...[/quote] Careful, I've heard that some of the Olympics is done from NY. --- Dan

[quote="Dan Berger"]Become a business owner, and see why lots of companies are moving out of CA & into TX, or India.[/quote] Good thing we work in an industry that's practically impossible to outsource... Or is it? I'm imagining a call center in India filled with switcher panels now....

Mike, you are right... the housing cost was just an example of the cost of living in different areas of the U.S. I'm not going to sit here and compare and contrast every little segment of the cost of living. All areas have different costs on some things, and all have the similar costs on other things. But overall... the cost of living in certain areas is much higher than others. A plumber makes more here than in other places. So does a painter. They both do the same job. What about a secretary? What would one make in NYC compared to Buffalo? It works the same in the TV business... not really a theory, more a fact of life in the U.S... or the world for that matter. Become a business owner, and see why lots of companies are moving out of CA & into TX, or India. --- Dan

Dan, one problem with your theory. I started in Buffalo, a small market and housing is cheap compared to SF or the Baltimore/DC area I am in now BUT gasoline and milk cost the same there as it is here. In fact, taxes are worse.

[quote="tvtd4u"]"Don't take the camera I call...take the RIGHT camera."[/quote] Yeah... assuming I'm paying attention, and catch the "RIGHT" camera, I get a rare "Thank you" from the director. So now the director thinks, "What a great TD for saving me all the time." So now as TD, you aren't paying attention, or are just pissed off from saving the director SO many times, and you push the button with the label that corresponds to the camera number the director just yelled out, now you get a stare down. Anyway... OK, rates across the country vary for a reason. If I made what I do here in the SF Bay Area in Kansas City, I'd be rich... But like many others around this nation living in other very expensive cities (NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, etc.), just like any other job, we have to make more. At the LOW end of the housing market in SF we're around $600k purchase price. In Dallas, I can easily get a really nice house (probably twice the size), in a really nice neighborhood, with really good schools for about $150-$200 (& easily less than that). Now tell me that it's fair to pay me the same rate as someone in Dallas. I know from people in this forum, I'm gonna hear a lot of flack, so I'm talking LOCAL work, whether it be sports, news, etc. When we talk national events, it's a different ball game. I don't see justification for going across the board with the same rates (within each discipline). If you are working high-ratings national events, there's more money, you should be paid more. So Bob working on a show that has many more millions of viewers, that makes much more advertising money, yes, he's going to be making a lot more than me working on a local NHL game that barely budges the registers on the meters. It's just business. If you want to make more, you have to go where the money is. I have no idea what another market makes, but if I were to call a crewer from a specific market, I could get an idea of at least the range, or the low end. --- Dan

I have found simply asking what they pay is a great way off finding out what the rates may be (ballpark). If I get a call about a job and I have never worked for tha crewer before I will ask what they normally pay, and if it is less then what I expect, I say well I will only do it for this much. Then I explain why I may cost more then the average TD. If they say a higher rate then I was expecting, then I will agree and say that sounds good. I have a rate in mind obviously before this conversation. Take into account what you made elsewhere and for what client, cable vs network, etc. Asking cannot hurt, I found have this method works well for freelance and staff discussions, it gives both sides a good place to start from, then negotiate if needed from there. I know that doesn't help with Florida specifics but try asking them.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]Are you asking for sports remotes? Studio? A package?[/quote] My original post was questioning the rates/pay scale of "in-studio" staff TDs and Director at a place like "the Golf Channel." I know there are many...MANY levels of skills and needs for TDs and Director on Sports remotes. And we all know that and remember what we learned a hundred years ago (yes I started a 100 years ago) .... my first teacher in "TV" school said...."Don't take the camera I call...take the RIGHT camera." So as a good TD you have to be part DIRECTOR. So get paid like one. Anyway.....WHAT ARE THE RATES FOR IN STUDIO TDs AND DIRECTORS... Thanks..... Also thanks for your input Rick.

I've managed to deflect any of the tech manager type responsibilities because I don't want them. If a camera operator or director has issue with the house over camera positions, they're adults, they can handle it. I'm not on a power trip, I don't need to meddle in operational affairs. I have a lot of my home camera guys that work network level union golf shows and expect me to take on an added roll...I'm not there to hold their hand. If they have an issue on an RSN show, they can figure it out for themself. As for Fox Sports Net, and the Mobile TV Group traveling people into a home town out of spite, as they have in many cities nationwide, I've found that it's only counterproductive for them. There's still a limited amount of somewhat qualified TDs (though their definition of qualified has certainly decreased), and I find that the weeks that they've blacklisted me locally, I only find them traveling me to another city to fill a position for a person they're doing the exact same thing to! Only paying us double or triple what we'd make at home. Yeah they sure taught me a lesson about raising my local rate. My formula for raising my rates is heavily based on the cost of what it would take to travel someone in, so ultimately I've found Fox to buckle at that when it makes too much sense to even them.

When I do NBA or NHL I get a TM, however for most college sports, excluding CSTV, and most MLB, excluding Yes Network, I don't have a TM. BTW, the TM for my NBA/NHL is also responsible for both shows, since the home broadcaster is the vendor in DC and they are hired by the vendor. I must know where the home show has their cameras and what positions are available, even though these things are supposedly worked out prior to production showing up at the arena. One common thing for Rich and I, we do the away show. That means it changes every day or series. Many times so does the equipment. I find it interesting that they want the same show they get at home but we get usually lesser equipment. I have worked with an entertainment director who told me that he has two main TD's, one for shows that don't have effects and another for shows that has effects. I know that Bob Ennis deals with DVEs every day but it seems like some other TDs don't operate every piece of gear but yet they get the bigger bucks.

[quote="laTD"]OK.. But what I meant was that in sports you don't get the heat for something not correctly setup (like a camera or a producer monitor - or even if the truck is parked at the wrong place), but you do in entertainment.[/quote] Actually...more often than not...we DO take the heat....certainly not warranted...but the nature of the beast, I guess, for being so physically close to the client. When a camera can't be placed where the director wants it...building rules...(or lack of organization there)...I'm the one who gets the heat from the Director... When the camera crew or utility (grip), if one or more is even hired for the show...guess who takes the heat for the misplaced or not placed monitor? justified...no, reality...yes [quote="laTD"]In sports the tech manager takes the heat for that and thus get the entertainemnt TD payscale :-)[/quote] OK, let's see if I can spell this out for better clarification.... On 90% of the shows I do (NBA, NHL, MLB, regional coverage, probably the largest amount of shows) ***** There is NO tech manager! ***** (and, no, we are not adequately remunerated for this function) (the other 10% of my load is network...yes I get a tech manager) (my choice to do more regional...just not a fan of living on the road) It is the TD's job to function as tech manager, as well. Is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes. I am not making an argument either way for which, if either, TD deserves more money... merely trying to point out a few things about MY world as a sports TD that you are certainly unaware of...just as I am in the dark about the day-to-day activities of an entertainment TD... It's just frustrating to see this from a TD...it's bad enough when crewers, clients, other crew members, think that our job is so easy..."you only gotta push a few buttons" .... a TD from another "entity" so to speak (news, entertainment, sports, etc) should have a better understanding that if you have not done the job...in whatever specific environment...it is out of line to make general assumptions about what the other guy does or does not do. Rich

[quote="Bob Ennis"]......Here, we have cameramen making $85 an hour and more...lots more...[/quote] I think it is time to start doing camera again!!

OK.. But what I meant was that in sports you don't get the heat for something not correctly setup (like a camera or a producer monitor - or even if the truck is parked at the wrong place), but you do in entertainment. In sports the tech manager takes the heat for that and thus get the entertainemnt TD payscale :-)

LAtd....no offense....but you need to get out more. You just described the MY job every day. Only parking the truck is not a normal function for me... but that's not to say I haven't done it. Not all TD's are "blessed" with all my responsibilities... some actually get tech managers...but we all do far more than just punch buttons. Yes, you struck a nerve. Rich

OK.. don't want to get the the sports TD community after me... but. There is a big difference between an LA entertainment TD and a sports button pusher (vision mixer). In entertainment, you gotta do the tech specs, park the truck, run the setup, FAX, make sure the crew gets their union meal, cut the show and then supervise the knockdown and before you leave, be the time sheet police... that is the big difference. In sports you just show up, sit at the console and push the buttons , just like a VTR op. Thus, the entertainment rates should be a lot higer. A tech manager is an unheard word of in entertainment, there is a tech manager for a five camera sports shoot but not for a 15 camera music concert. If the networks could trust sports TD's to manage their shows techincally, then sports TD rates would be higher as well, and then they needed not to hire a tech manager. In sports, TD's are European style vision mixers and should be paid as such.

[quote="J.J. Szokody"]They're paying all of their TDs 425/10hr regardless of experience. I said that you'd have to pay me more, but you'll be getting a much more experienced sports TD.... they said, no. The funny thing is that they are willing to pay to travel someone to Atlanta, put em up in a hotel, pay per diem, and get em a rental car..... totaling a much higher expense to the company than what I was asking for on my rate. Have you guys had similar experiences?[/quote] Hi J.J.: I didn't want to post publicly on this subject and rates for Florida to avoid some comments that might have been thrown my way. I did however email Victor and we went back and forth about it. We found out that Victor and I know each other and that he TDed for me when I was directing for FOX in LA. Small world sometimes. To get to the point of my post, I have experienced exactly what you mention here in Florida with the rates. They will not pay you $5.00 more, but they will travel in someone to prove their point that they did not give in to you and your demands for more money. This is why I don't cry for the regionals when there is overtime or a missed meal as they have plenty of money to burn and their "excuse" that they have to save money is just weak, especially when they go to expense to travel in someone. If they can't compromise with you then what kind of business decision is that. If anything it's a poor business decision, they should not be crying wolf and the bean counters should be looking at them. Whenever I get a call from out of the market or from a client I don't do a package with I ask and get the rate that I think I'm worth because at this point "they need you". I try to be fair, but they too have to be fair with you in dealing with TSA and the hassle of traveling. The issue at large is that we as TD's should all stick together to bring the rates up where they belong. I know that is difficult do say and like Bob said, there is always someone who will work for less. I'm not one of them because we are the last stop before sometimes goes on the air. TD's can either make or break a show and with the responsibility we have these days it should be equal pay across the board. I do both Sports and Entertainment, but sports is the majority of my business. In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, there are three jobs on a remote that require a competent technician .... TD, A1 and lead EVS. Without these people and of course a few good camera ops they have nothing and somewhere that has to mean something! We should all be appreciated for what we do and compensated for it as well, but it's important that we all stick together.

My Director just put the $$$ into perspective for me... He said that a TD's rate is normally based on a cameraman's rate + "X" percentage. If a sports cameraman is making $18 an hour, the TD isn't going to be making THAT much more. Here, we have cameramen making $85 an hour and more...lots more. The Entertainment TD gets to ride THAT wave. BTW, right now I choose to do primarily Game Shows (Wheel & Jeopardy)...no script like on the Dance or Music shows - just basic rundowns. Still, I do agree about the idea of raising rates - you sports guys DO work hard & I've got nothing but respect for anyone who can sit in the chair. And let's face it: "a rising tide raises all ships" - upping rates would be good for everybody.

Yeah... you're right, Bob. There is always going to be someone who will work for less. I had a dream... now you crushed it. jk. It comes down to demand. If your director demands that you're his/her TD.... you're automatically in a better negotiating corner. And, this happens a lot more in entertainment. I knew I'd strike a cord with someone about the whole entertainment/sports thing. Secretly, deep down, I'd rather be in entertainment so I'm a little sore about it. During the shows though, I've gotta say big sports shows are harder... sorry. You have a script! It does depend on the show, I'll give you that... but the same is true about sports. I'm not saying a 4 camera/replay only show is harder than The Daily Show or Mad Money (oh, wait Cramer runs his own effects)..., but... big sports shows, 70+effects that could fire off at any moment. It aint easy. Btw... is Drew Carey a good dude? or... Alex Trebek?... hmmm, or... Homer Simpson!... you TD the Simpsons!... that's awesome!

The assertion that doing Sports is more difficult than Entertainment could start a volatile debate, and of course depends on the show, so I won't go there. Everybody agreeing on a rate would be nice, but here in the L.A. Entertainment arena, I can't tell you how many of my associates have undercut me or others in the pursuit of work. When jobs are scarce or newbies are doing whatever they can to break into the job market, the "union" mentality of everybody working together tends to go out the window...which is sad but true. It would be arrogant of me to suggest that Entertainment TD's get more than their sports counterparts because they are better - just as it would be arrogant to suggest that Sports TD's are better than Entertainment TD's. They are different diciplines that require different skills...I think that the big difference lies in two areas - how much worth is your job viewed as by the bean-counters, and how much income does your show garner to the network or station? If you are one of many others, like there are in sports, your worth is not that much, as you are viewed as easily replaceble. Entertainment TD's are a smaller group, and thus the "I can get another one just like you" attitude is not as prevalent (but the undercutting still is). Also, Entertainment TD's are typically viewed as more of a 2nd director & decision maker and less of just a button pusher - thus they are closer on-par with the person sitting to their left...the Directors make more, thus their right-hand person also rides that wave. Unless you're doing one of the "big" sporting events, there is simply more money involved in Entertainment shows...especially Prime Time Network stuff. The 2 little shows that I work on are big names in the Industry...they may not have the current "sexyness" of an Amereican Idol, but they've been on air for 25 years and are booked through 2012...something not many other shows can claim. They bring in between $800 million & $1 billion a year for their parent company. They can afford to pay their people better. It's often cheaper to send someone to a venue & put them up, as airfare, hotels, & car rentals are often trade-outs that cost the production company little or nothing; wages come out of a different pocket. If everybody got together & stabilized rates, that would be great...but based on past experience, don't bet on it happening. Unions did that years ago, and all that happened is that the best people got reduced to being paid the same as their least-common denominators...that's why they re-negociate their own rates, and the cycle starts over.

This brings up a great discussion. He says... "I know what I make now...(work in Los Angeles)". We (primarily sports operators) need to start getting our rates closer to the LA entertainment scale. I've always heard that entertainment TDs make more than sports guys. AND, yeah, I know you're in more of a Tech Manager/TD position, but seriously.... TDing sports is MUCH more difficult. Yes, I've done both. That along with the constant need for good TDs... shouldn't we all expect a minimum of $700+/10hr day rates? If we all raise our rates, our clients would have no choice but to bump us up. Right?... or am I missing something? Side story.....I live in Atlanta where Turner used to run things. A couple years back, the rights to Braves/Hawks/Thrashers shifted to a different network who is known for low rates. At the time, I was asked to work for a rate lower than my own and they said no thanks. They're paying all of their TDs 425/10hr regardless of experience. I said that you'd have to pay me more, but you'll be getting a much more experienced sports TD.... they said, no. The funny thing is that they are willing to pay to travel someone to Atlanta, put em up in a hotel, pay per diem, and get em a rental car..... totaling a much higher expense to the company than what I was asking for on my rate. Have you guys had similar experiences?

Are you asking for sports remotes? Studio? A package?

I'd tell 'em $700 for 10.

I know what I make now...(work in Los Angeles) and I know what I am worth (35 years experience) Just wondering what the general going rates are?

[quote="tvtd4u"]Anyone working in Florida?Orlando?the Golf Channel? Do you have any idea what the pay scale is for TDs as well as Directors? Thanks[/quote] Isn't it like anything in this industry....it is what you make it, and what you're worth?