One other thing besides the modules that you should find out about is the DME options. The G frame comes with 2D resizers for each keyer, they do not do 3D rotate and such and are not real DME's. Hopefully you have some $$ for atleast 4 channels of DME, and ask for external (BNC connectors) as long as you have enough in and outs to feed and bring the channels back in. Make sure you get a flexi pad for each ME, for some reason a lot of places have that fade to black module on their pgm bus, and no flexi, if you want the fade to black module for previews and such just take it out of the panel and put it on a side splash. Also there is a machine control module and choice between trackball and joystick for your DME's. Typically most places never ask their operators for their input into some of these options, rather mng or engineering purchase what they think they know will work best. Depending on your situation and use some modules may suit your facility better then others.

[quote="D9_hoosier"][quote="XLNTeditor"]Why is it just a Kayak or Sony? Was Kahuna, Ross or For-A considered? If management had "heard" that one of those was too expensive or didn't have the features they want, they should probably at least take a look since everybody has new features or new pricing at NAB. Irv[/quote] The main reason we were looking at only these two are price and "The Name." We are coming from a 2.5 M/E Zodiak and that "Grass Like" feel that we all know and love. But because the Kalypso was out of our price range and deemed by some to be "dated" or "old" they wanted to look at the Kayak because it was both....well I guess technically but not really...a grass product and at a price we can afford. The Sony is a bit different. Because we are a university station, We have a deal with Sony that will provide deep discounts (we already bought 5 HDC-1500 Cameras) so they wanted to try and stay with Sony. Although a 3 M/E Sony with the discount is still more expensive than a 4.5 M/E kayak I think they are going to go with the 8k...WHEW!!!.... Anyway thanks for your helpful response and I look forward to spending lots of time on the Sony threads....[/quote] Keep in mind that a Kayak is ***NOT*** a GVG switcher. It is a Philips XTenDD that has been re-branded. In fact, when it first came out, it was branded the KayakDD, but was changed, for marketing reasons, in the US to just Kayak. In the rest of the world it is still marketed as KayakDD. Don't let the colored buttons on the "GVG-style" control panel fool you.... they're just that... colored buttons. There is no "GVG" feel. In fact, there is no GVG any more.... it's Thomson. GVG(as everyone has known it) has been dead for quite a while. RE

[quote="Matt Saplin"]Not sure if it's too late, but be cautious about automation and the possibility of automation. While it will play a part in many of our lives, a switcher like a Sony 8000G or the Kalypso will help keep it away a bit longer. Last I knew, the Kalypso won't work with Ignite. On the other hand, the Kayak was partially developed to be controlled by automation. Snell & Wilcox just announced that it's Kahuna will work with a Harris automation solution, and we all know about Ross' Overdrive. I'm sure that Sony will develop an answer for those looking for automation, but for now we're safe. ;-) Just something to think about as you move forward... Good luck, and have fun when the new switcher arrives! Matt[/quote] Sony announced a full automation package at NAB that will be shipping this winter. As for the S&W/Harris "automation", it really isn't. From everything I've heard and seen, it's little more than "e-mem" recalls of everything that has to be pre-built on the switcher. Not a real MOS-based automation solution like the Kayak or Sony. RE

[quote="Matt Saplin"]....I'm sure that Sony will develop an answer for those looking for automation, but for now we're safe. ;-)[/quote] And here's your answer: :( Chris Bade WTVF Nashville

[quote="D9_hoosier"]The main reason we were looking at only these two are price and "The Name." We are coming from a 2.5 M/E Zodiak and that "Grass Like" feel that we all know and love.[/quote] I'm at a station that was looking at Grass, Ross and Snell & Wilcox. Sony was not considered for some reason unknown to me. We chose the Kahuna for a few reasons: We saw great value in buying an HD switcher that would not require lots of outboard conversion hardware. We were very happy with the SD to HD upconversion hardware we already owned from Snell in our master control. We also had nearly zero training time before our HD launch. Our TD had just a few days of training and they were off and running. Our early shows were pretty simple, but things continue to improve. As a fellow Hoosier, I ask that you give the Kahuna a good look. But if that's out of the question, I would pick the Sony over the Kayak. I sat down for a few switcher demos at NAB 2007. The Sony demo was sweet, but I would come back to the Snell booth with more question; "the Sony guys showed me this". Ken would say, "I can do that too".

[quote="D9_hoosier"]The main reason we were looking at only these two are price and "The Name." We are coming from a 2.5 M/E Zodiak and that "Grass Like" feel that we all know and love. But because the Kalypso was out of our price range and deemed by some to be "dated" or "old" they wanted to look at the Kayak because it was both....well I guess technically but not really...a grass product and at a price we can afford.[/quote] Don't be fooled that the Kayak is a Grass Product you will be familiar with. It is not a Grass Product in any sense of the word. It is poorly laid out and the display system is small and useless. As I mentioned, its software is the same architecture as the European Philips DD35 and XtenDD switchers which were not successful switchers (because of their convoluted menu system) in this country. Thompson bought Grass Valley and while the Philips switchers were powerful switchers as Mike points out, they were too complicated to program and thus failed in this country and that is a plain fact! If you want a true Grass legacy product then the Kalypso is the switcher for you but because of price points today, there are other options you should take a serious look at that are similar in operation to the Kalypso. The Kayak is not one of them! Just don't be fooled by price... you're certain to get what you pay for!

Although I haven't used Sony's Multi Program II, (Sony talk for Double Take) I think a 2 ME 8K will do more easier then a 4.5ME Kayak. If you do get approved for the 8K, please spend some time checking out the various modules that make up the panel. The modules can be moved around, though we don't, but it is best to figure out what is needed and where it should go BEFORE the box goes on air.

[quote="XLNTeditor"]Why is it just a Kayak or Sony? Was Kahuna, Ross or For-A considered? If management had "heard" that one of those was too expensive or didn't have the features they want, they should probably at least take a look since everybody has new features or new pricing at NAB. Irv[/quote] The main reason we were looking at only these two are price and "The Name." We are coming from a 2.5 M/E Zodiak and that "Grass Like" feel that we all know and love. But because the Kalypso was out of our price range and deemed by some to be "dated" or "old" they wanted to look at the Kayak because it was both....well I guess technically but not really...a grass product and at a price we can afford. The Sony is a bit different. Because we are a university station, We have a deal with Sony that will provide deep discounts (we already bought 5 HDC-1500 Cameras) so they wanted to try and stay with Sony. Although a 3 M/E Sony with the discount is still more expensive than a 4.5 M/E kayak I think they are going to go with the 8k...WHEW!!!.... Anyway thanks for your helpful response and I look forward to spending lots of time on the Sony threads....

Not sure if it's too late, but be cautious about automation and the possibility of automation. While it will play a part in many of our lives, a switcher like a Sony 8000G or the Kalypso will help keep it away a bit longer. Last I knew, the Kalypso won't work with Ignite. On the other hand, the Kayak was partially developed to be controlled by automation. Snell & Wilcox just announced that it's Kahuna will work with a Harris automation solution, and we all know about Ross' Overdrive. I'm sure that Sony will develop an answer for those looking for automation, but for now we're safe. ;-) Just something to think about as you move forward... Good luck, and have fun when the new switcher arrives! Matt

I don't have much experience on a SONY, but the KAYAK is not your solution. Your looking for ease of use, and flexibility go with the SONY or even better a KALYPSO (sorry I'm a GVG guy). I did however like the last experience on a SONY, so I wouldn't steer you away from that.

The Kayaks I mentioned are owned by Mobile TV Group and used by the Big Ten Network. The trucks went into service last summer being used for some MLB, then college football and then various winter sports. I heard of the replacement in early March '08, which meant that the panel was less then a year old when it failed. Rick, hope all is well, I personally think the DD was a better box then the Kayak. Never used the XtenDD. The only reason to get a Kayak is if they plan on replacing studio staff with Ignite. If that is the case, just hope that you still have a job.

[quote="Mike Cumbo"]BTW, I have heard from one EIC that they had to replace an entire control panel on a Kayak since the buttons can't be replaced in the field. The 8K panel you can replace modules at will, just turn the panel power supplies off first. (Maintenance cost and down time.)[/quote] My friend Mike is correct... when a button fails on the Kayak the WHOLE PANEL must be replaced! What are you going to do during a show when the button fails? On 2 or 3 of the Kayak trucks that I know of that are relatively new, at least two of them have failed buttons which we are told to stay away from by their EIC's. How come they haven't replaced the panels?? In the long run you will be better with a Sony especially for it's serviceability. As Dan mention, the Kayak is a pain to program and I can assure you myself that it's user interface is not friendly in the least. While it's price is what makes it attractive, its software is based on the failed Philips DD35 and XtenDD switchers which have been all but replaced in this country. Additionally, while the Kayak is making some inroads, it is doing so at the operators expense. Station Engineers are sold on a demo and that is it! Then they are given a price by some salesman who is only interested in selling "their" product. A DEMO is just that a DEMO, and not the way things work in the real world. Sorry, but engineers and management are not operators and they should listen to what we the operators actually experience using these products in everyday situations. Again as Dan mentioned, what you should be able to program in minutes on a Kalypso or Sony 8K will take you possibly 4 or 5 times as long to do on a Kayak if you can find the right menu. The menu structure is intensive and it was not designed to program anything quickly on the fly which can be easily done on a Kalypso or a Sony. So they can pay now or they will pay later, there are other options, but that is one thing they should not cheap on is the switcher. PLEASE be sure to print these comments out to show your management people. They need to know what they are really getting into if they choose to purchase a Kayak. Never be fooled by a Demo.... they are designed to do just that... to Wow you! Instead look at what the switcher can do in to "real word" and how it's operators interact with it. But in all honesty I would stay far away from a Kayak.

Why is it just a Kayak or Sony? Was Kahuna, Ross or For-A considered? If management had "heard" that one of those was too expensive or didn't have the features they want, they should probably at least take a look since everybody has new features or new pricing at NAB. Irv

Ask management if they want to spend more money on a real switcher like the Sony 8k or Kalypso, upfront, or more money later on all the OT they are going to have to pay you & your colleagues to program the Kayak for the show they want. Plus all the countless hours you will be on the board cussing & swearing at management for getting a Kayak. The Kayak, while a very powerful switcher for the money, is a pain to program. I, & other TD's, have spent countless hours programming the thing, for something that should easily take about 5-10 mins. You are constantly digging through menu after menu to find what you want, or switching between menus to do simple stuff that should just be on the panel itself. Don't try to build anything while you are on-air... nearly impossible. Also, talk directly to Sony to see if they can get you a better deal than any "dealer" you may be working with. DON'T GET A KAYAK! --- Dan

The 8K is a real switcher. The Kayak might be OK for a cable "LO" operation. Ease of use, ease of set-up. You can do things on air during breaking news easier. Make sure you get an 8K "G". Each keyer has a 2d positioner for 2 boxes or things like that. The new software can handle audio in the frame memory. Oh, BTW, I have heard from one EIC that they had to replace an entire control panel on a Kayak since the buttons can't be replaced in the field. The 8K panel you can replace modules at will, just turn the panel power supplies off first. (Maintenance cost and down time.)